This place needs to be shut down. not given to wine Most commenters here are members of the Body of Christ there is really only one Church whether they attend HBC or not, they are part of the fellowship there in spirit. This resource is better: https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. What in the world is going on? But one way or the other, my instincts about Hall dont alter my opinion that Dee likely has good reasons to not want to use this forum to air a familys personal tragedy any more. I dont see how you could get any further from the mark in your comment. Most of those who attended my former Calvinist Church have wandered back to non-Reformed churches; several others have rejected God altogether. Indeed, the simplest act of love and kindness can be profound when we simply remove all the trappings and rules of organized religion. Max: Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. I dont see how were in disagreement, at least in terms of practical application. Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ is one of the most GRAPHIC and INTENSE and VIOLENT art films ever made. In the face of authoritarian church leaders who excommunicate, run off or demonize anyone who dares to challenge their false authority and/or iniquity, blogs have filled the void of public accountability. It just doesnt seem to be relevant (at least to me) to anything that this blogs about. How to Resign from a Church TS00: Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. Releasing a letter to a select few was a half measure response. Because MacDonald earned it. We have partnered with Grace Theological Seminary and Chicago Partnership to move onward in equipping leaders to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. ), Law Prof: If we just got back to that model, the one the early church leaders generally followed . If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. Heard somewhere; Hell never be a great man.. Every man has his price, or a guy like me couldnt exist. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. What is an egalitarian group to do I when bullies take over? Lord knows we need a fundamental change in the selection of leaders for the Body of Christ and an accountability system in place to keep the charlatans at bay. And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. As usual, your comments and insight are on the money, Amy Moore. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. into playing a role in a conspiracy they do not even grasp. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit.No longer do I feel like I know, or need to know, or could even remotely grasp the answers to so much of life. Instead, the whole thing was a Yes Men (and Im not talking about the performance artist group) operation for the aggrandizement of James McDonald. Yet with their plausible and attractive arguments they deceive those who are too simple-hearted to see through them (Romans 16:17). The thought has come to me again and again (others have expressed similar views) that the Church seems to recapitulate (history rhyming if not repeating exactly) Old Israel. . The size of the Elgin Campus allowed us to fulfill a dream: A preschool through grade 12 Christian school, to help us implant the truths of Gods Word into the hearts of young people five days a week in addition to the weekend. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians will be abused UNLESS men and women of integrity stand up and shine the light of truth on Harvest Bible Chapels dirty deeds done in darkness. I havent read the comments, and Im just going to say that seeing a dead bear there with James McDonald behind it made me sick. If you go here you can see them listed in the browser search https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+chosen+producers+james+macdonald&t=ffsb&ia=web but when you click on the link you can see that Jenkins had the producers list altered to remove those names and place all new producers (the money) except for himself on the website. The word contains with it a reference to age. Driscoll was a featured speaker at that event last year. im proud to be human. We have seen that the octopus has many arms, from mega-churches to major christian publications to all of the organizations that feed the monster. Posted in Theology | Tagged Alpha and Omega, Comparing Myself to Others, Dallas Jenkins, Gavin Stone, God's Sovereignty, God's Will Plan and Priorities, Harvest Bible Chapel, Vertical Church Films | 7 Comments. This cancer is about to metastasize across the U.S. and ALL of the dirt needs to be made public for the safety and spiritual well-being of the masses. If people develop real relationships, they might start talking and could stand up against the abuse. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. MIGHTILY. In 2021, Camp Harvest was sold to a ministry to continue the maintenance and ongoing work of ministry to young people, youth ministry, and camp events. No more tithe. The Chosen is Different. For some, that would be a great option. Your support is what helps bring hope, and is a large part of the reason I chose to comment here at TWW. . a human-designated term. Everything after those three paragraphs is my comment. Whether its a yes-man or someone the lead guy has dirt on, its easy enough for these types to have a handful in pocket. Please think about all the others who will fall under these cultic practices if these perpetrators and their deeds are not brought into the open. Good analogy, since Vietnamese restaurants tend to be small and committed to authenticity, without extorting the customer. Lowlandseer: Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. Accept that and use this springboard given by God to be the leader God always intended you to be. (baby dont hurt me no more) Maybe JMs associates and enablers thought the most loving thing was to go along with JM for the sake of the everlasting benefits in heaven that would be experienced in the future by the people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. I am of the Done tribe, but still begin each day committing to leaving the door to my heart ever so slightly ajar. Thats not the same as authoritarian of course but there are lots of verses warning against such behaviour and other selfish motives. My family faced a similar situation years ago. Maybe you missed the point of her post. I am there; have been close to 8-years now. (Stacey Wescott/Chicago Tribune/TNS. Dee kindly explained my comment had been flagged because of some word in it and I wasnt blocked. The worlds fierce winds are blowing, -, Im certainly not an Apostle chosen by the hand of Jesus as Paul was nor a prophet, or a son of a prophet. The church needs the wisdom of age coupled with the energy of youth young folks to speed things up a bit, old folks to slow it down when necessary. Shame on you. I had a churchgoer tell me once in a Bible Study to Lighten up Max. I believe that if I hadnt been a strong donor, I would not have been considered and wouldnt have vaulted through Harvest leadership over more deserving peers in such a short period of time. Rather, as all of these spiritually abusive situations demonstrate, the flock is likely to be deceived and preyed upon by wolves in sheeps clothing. As God himself never forces anyone to believe in him, or acknowledge the Truth, we cannot expect to be able to persuade others to see what, to us, seems so obvious. ++++++++++++++++++++++. Or get your own blog and allow comments to your hearts content. Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. Who do you want to be in Gods sight? Morris no longer sits on Driscolls board. . To be brief. able to teach Turns out that he was looking to fulfill his succession plan all along, and was just cycling thru people until he found one that fit. holy gentle Then, I started laughing! Give them what they want in the present, and they wont care about the past. blameless Informacin detallada del sitio web y la empresa: cscdluquillo.com, +17878893488, +17875205223, +19547634027, +12012041300, +12012081024 Christian School and Chapel for the Deaf | Puerto Rico WHERE TO FIND US. That argument may not work as there are other factors to be considered. If I were you, I would review what happened at Mars Hill and the Mark Driscoll implosion. It is somewhat inevitable, as their theology asserts that the lost are not so much lost as rejected and doomed by eternal decree from the get go. I suspect, from many comments of those involved, that there was an actual mafia-like aspect of JMacs control. I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. Ive seen the lightning flashing, (although unnecessary according to ECFA standards).. ++++++++++++++++++++. I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). If I understand your former function at Harvest (based on what you said in your letter) your job involved presenting and tightly controlling the Harvest narrative through media. There is little question in my mind that James MacDonald will flip the bird at Harvest Bible Chapel and start a new church enterprise quicker than you can say leather jacket. What MacDonald has done must be documented, not only for the education of his next set of *followers* but for posterity. And particularly sad to see younger church folks not benefiting from the council of senior saints. No longer do I feel like I know, or need to know, or could even remotely grasp the answers to so much of life. Many will say to Me on that day when I judge them, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name? And then I will declare to them publicly, I never knew you; depart from Me, you are banished from My presence, you who act wickedly disregarding My commands. (Matthew 7:21-23). (Amy, thanks for the clarification on Amy/Lauren). I guess I mean that a person, on his or her own, cant do it without God working it out in that person. During this season, we are encouraging everyone to give online and that can be done by clicking the button below. Kids Night Out. I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. Its also possible it wasnt a continuous period of teaching, that there were times when they all had to go to work because they had families to support. All this, with the goal of getting me, my family and the Executive Elders removed ," MacDonald wrote. But this just doesnt seem to fit. blameless This concerns me. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. Churches that are run like cults do not encourage true friendships. and bring me another beer. There is also this interesting statement by Ignatuius (martyred in 108 AD): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. Precept Inductive Bible Study for Women. Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. I was not hoping or expecting to find this. I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. Consider the following Scriptures: For a bishop [EPISKOPOS] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money. (Titus 1:7), Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops [EPISKOPOS] and deacons (Philippians 1:1). My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). In April of 2021, following an extensive search and urgent prayer, the Elders of Harvest Bible Chapel announced the new Lead Teaching Pastor to be Dr. Jeff Bucknam. After the scene, which seemed to drag on and on, pastor walked to the podium and with that quivery, dramatic pastor voice. To no avail, because his problem is not that he struggles with imperfection but that he is a fake, a phony, a self-seeking narcissist who manipulates and abuses others for self profit and aggrandizement. Trust me, youre not. This man has no shame. So why not allow comments? Theyre showing their colors alright. What is an egalitarian group to do I when bullies take over? There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. There may be a general principle here, perhaps related to how many people you can know and relate to at a more than superficial level., And the cash flow in a church of 300 is not so large that it is likely to corrupt the leadership team.. I meant Jesus loves us to infinity. It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. not a novice Oh no, we must look to whatever local shcmuck stands in our particular church pulpit and asserts that he speaks for God. As if someone who chooses to remain anonymous has no right to speak. Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra. Begin your journey with the prayer. Personally, I neither know, nor do I think it much matters, how many, if any mortals are in on the conspiracy I still believe it exists and is succeeding admirably. Indeed, I tremble considering even posting this brief comment for fear of retribution. Jesus was dismayed by self-seeking among His disciples; he who would be great among you must become the servant of all.. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. So at least in theory there are checks and balances. Yet the first line in that post was that Dee would not allow comments. It is designed to provide a worship experience for people in remote communities or for those who otherwise cannot join us live for the service. All three of those aspects are absent from the biblical directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children. You have any lies and untrue rumors to highlight that are being spread here, out with them. It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. People were dying for this faith from the very beginning, which suggests that it was not merely wishful thinking about some made up traditions. Ive tried to leave TWW twice to go fishing or something, but my fans urged me to stay. David, this is something that I think needs much closer examination. We have heard and experienced horror in groups of all models. elastigirl: why does it matter what Paul thinks? Let the truth flow. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. It is a position of authority and responsibility. There is no question that MacDonald was running the elders. It might be handy (for someone in high places with a gambling addiction) to have an insider to assist them in hiding their identity or amount of activity. Some comments lead to some questions. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. Its your choice. Here are four things you should know about The Chosen: Photo courtesy: VidAngel. We know the examples of Timothy, Titus etc. They taught 200 pastors how to create a stronger choke-hold on their church so that no one can wrestle it away from them. It is very difficult to regain trust when the most trusted abuse it. The Four Pillars of HBC: 1 - PROCLAIMING the authority of God's Word without apology. These qualifications must be met if one is to be a pastor for the flock of God. you are a very comforting presence here, Max. This man is a disgrace to humanity. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. I guess its all a matter of perspective. I was just telling my wife this morning, that all the corruption that gets exposed on TWW is actually quite consistent with the NT warning of beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. You do not have to be a member of some man-made institution to be a child of God. Ken F (aka Tweed): Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. Only if this does not work are you to turn him away as a unbeliever. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. Maybe that was why Elmer Gantry had such impact. My cousin belongs to a house church in western Iowa. It used to be so unthinkable to imagine life without religion as I have always known it. Its life giving. The company typically gets sick and diessometimes quickly and sometimes suddenlybut it dies. The price has been paid, sin and death vanquished, and all may come to the Son for meat and drink with no money and no payment. You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. That someone who was on the point of dying took time to write these dreams down is remarkable in and of itself. One would think that 3 years with Jesus ought to be transformative, but the Gospels seem pretty clear that the Twelve were following Jesus at least in part in hope of high office in a future visible kingly reign over Israel. Shame on you. Max: My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. *you are Gods only light at the place of work. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. We all know who is trustworthy, mature and wise to go to for advice or counsel. John: JMac should never pastor another church ever. Its your choiceAnonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. (ive mentioned my thoughts on this many times here & there at TWW, so apologies to one and all for yet another one. http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/. With 17+ degree options, we have something for everyone. Sometimes sincerely wrong. The elders, set in place by God Himself (Ephesians 4:11), are to watch over, tend to and care for the flock of God. theres a massive problem with the deference thats given but the level of deference given to pastors is completely unhealthy and all because a book kind of indicates that they need to be heeded. . Redemption is a gift, freely offered to one and all. not covetous Unless it was a danger to someone. He produced the independent feature "Hometown Legend" at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. Our former pastor was not only being paid far more than the community and congregational average, we were always showering them with paid vacations, new clothing for the kids and cash gifts. Harvest Bible Chapel is an evangelical Christian megachurch in Rolling Meadows, Illinois. Friend: And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. Shouldnt we trust our churchs leadership?, But as of this moment, the vast majority of James s closest friends and ministry leaders over the decades have said nothing publicly about these crises.. Your comments about pastor so and so were so, er, clever! And for keeping ones mouth shut on the way out? Vietnamese cuisine is good! So you and Dean screwed up. Jimmy Evans, Head of Marriage Today TV & Sr Pastor and Apostle of Gateway Church, is reportedly in contact with James MacDonald. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Ephesians 5:11). Vincent: you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion. I couldnt post that letter due to my absolute disgust at the depths to which MacDonald has sunk. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. Those extra-Biblical portions comprise 95% of what's been in the show thus far, according to Jenkins, but that and everything else is still run through a proofing process involving scholars of the Bible and people in full-time ministry to make sure it is in harmony with what's in Scripture. Wow. Or an attempt to conceal more? Still plenty of room on the downside, I reckon. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another.. Theres no edit function so it couldnt later be deleted. Milholland did this exact same thing at his former church, Hope Church in Memphis. This is indeed the plan of Satan, IMO, but when you try to suggest such a thing you are usually scoffed at as a conspiracy theorist. Because of pain. Dallas Jenkins Harvest Bible Chapel. Your church, at which you played a significant role, is a five alarm dumpster fire and there are thousands of actual souls who have been affected by this admitted scandal. The bear was later seen using the gun to defend itself against local mice and rabbits.. of course lightning bolt messages from God come about as often as seas parting. Thank you!!!! In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. I think its one of the reasons that the mega movement has been so attractive to laity as well as leaders; they imagine that a bigger, more resource-rich group will be able to rescue more people from the terrible fate they would otherwise experience. Its true, though, this is kind of an agonized therapy for me, and I am sincere. Thats when the insanity really began. Dallas has at long last come out, along with a long list of other former top Harvest leadrs. Every weekend we open the word of God and study the truth He has revealed to us. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. None of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. 2 -. dee: along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. How would church members do what you recommend? . And you dare to point your finger at TWW participants, and courageous Dee? Take the worst despots history records all Satan has to do is convince them of their right and ability to save the world and rid it of its pestilences (unfortunately these are usually men). Harvest Bible Chapel We're here to glorify God through the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20). I would ask that you take some time to think about it. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. Every believer has a part! Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. Sandy: In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. This moved the church into a season of transitional leadership for the next 27 months. Our youngest daughter, Leah was married this week to Alexei, a wonderful young man! More and more people are realizing that they are not going to get the facts from Harvest. They all were making out pretty large with the tithes of people who thought they were giving to good causes. Open Discussion Page. This is even more understandable in our world of online abuse. Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. THis man should never be in a position of authority again, and even less in one of spiritual authority (whatever that may mean). Abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? and on the iceberg? The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. You dont get to ask for silence now. Thompson walked away from Harvest in 2013. If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. words like unsaved, which always has the connotation of someone to be wary of. You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. But who is to say whether that subset is right? elastigirl, Bayloy University Medical Center, 3500 Gaston Ave., Dallas, TX 75246 carlos_bll@yahoo.com Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, Diocese of Chicago and Detroit Bishop Peter Loukianoff 4/26/2019 Community Bible Church Ed Newton and Sean Metcalf 2477 N. 1604 East San Antonio TX 78232 5/1/2018 Harvest Bible Chapel Tampa Bay Rev. This could be real or fabricated, such as recordings of people, say, playing the Name Game, or threats of kicking their kids out, planting child porn on their devices or otherwise destroying their reputations. and they have everyone scared spitless that if they vocalize their concerns about what is unethical in their church, & in their tribe, they will disappoint God, Trust (Cambridge Dictionary): to believe that someone is good and honest and will not harm you, or that something is safe and reliable. He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. Law Prof: I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. Harvest Christian Fellowship is a megachurch in Riverside, California. And theres a high likelihood this statement will get them expelled.. i have an observation: i know many people who dont subscribe to christianity, yet are the most excellent human beings. Noevangelical: Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. God will not, will not let you go. Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the most successfully crowdfunded series of all time, "The Chosen," said he's setting the record straight for the last time on the matter of whether he believes Mormons are Christians. Every single person there loves Harvest so much that they cant leave?? Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. This is accomplished mainly through having only a few puppet elders who are as dirty as the head pastor, hence, the 3 out of state elders Driscoll chose. Matt Chandler (born June 20, 1974) is the lead pastor of teaching at the Village Church, a Southern Baptist church in Flower Mound, Texas, and the President of the Acts 29 Network. Me too, back when I was in the last Bible Church. Thats why Im asking LLS (and Ken/Tweed, if he wants) how do these worship men, not God structures ever have any mechanisms at all to keep from going wildly off the rails? Which direction you take religion or relationship determines whether you discover Truth or not.